Confessions from a Mid-Career Physician: Why It’s Okay to Want More Than Medicine

“We’re at that age where it would still be sad if we died of a heart attack—but not shocking.” – Dr. Kaveh Hoda

Dr. Kaveh Hoda is a practicing gastroenterologist, podcaster, and member of what he calls the “Gen X of medicine”. A mid-career cohort that trained on paper charts, watched the rise of electronic health records, and now finds itself navigating a different kind of transition: the emotional and professional reckoning that often arrives after a decade or more in practice. It’s the moment when many doctors realize they’ve mastered the medicine, but still feel something is missing.

In this episode of How I Doctor, Dr. Graham Walker sits down with Kaveh for a candid conversation about identity, burnout, aging, and the surprising freedom that can come with hitting your clinical stride. They explore why so many mid-career doctors start looking beyond the exam room for creative projects, more meaningful patient relationships, or simply a life with better boundaries. It’s a funny, unflinching look at a stage of the physician journey that rarely gets discussed, but deserves to a lot more.

What Mid-Career Doctors Need to Hear

This episode is filled with reflections and hard-earned wisdom for physicians navigating the “middle” of their careers. Here are three standout takeaways from Dr. Kaveh Hoda’s conversation with Dr. Graham Walker:

You Don’t Have to Be Just One Thing Anymore

“Now that we’re in our mid-careers, we’ve gotten pretty good at what we do. The medicine is always changing—that’s fun—but you do want to explore different things… Part of being a mid-career physician is questioning that. Do I want to keep doing just this?”

For many physicians, the middle of a career comes with competence—but also restlessness. Kaveh opens up about the desire to stretch beyond medicine without leaving it behind. He didn’t start a podcast to escape; he started one to stay curious. That kind of creative outlet doesn’t require walking away from medicine—it can actually help you stay more connected to it, and to yourself.

Burnout Can Hide Behind Cynicism

“Doctors are skeptics by nature. But when you become cynical, it’s eating away at you more than anything else. And it can happen slowly—over years—until one day you realize you’re not the same doctor you used to be.”

It’s a slow fade: the shift from healthy skepticism to bitter detachment. Kaveh and Graham both describe how easy it is for burnout to wear the mask of dark humor or indifference. But underneath that, there’s often exhaustion, disillusionment, and the quiet question of does any of this matter? Recognizing that early—and talking about it out loud—can be the first step toward re-engagement and recovery.

Mid-Career is the Moment to Get Real

“I speak to patients the same way I speak to you. I stopped putting on the doctor suit. There’s less tension in my brain now—less cognitive dissonance—because I’m finally being myself at work.”

At some point, the performance gets tiring. Kaveh reflects on how mid-career brought him the confidence to stop code-switching and start showing up authentically—with patients, colleagues, and trainees. Letting go of the polished persona doesn’t mean lowering standards; it means raising the bar for honest, human connection. And for many doctors, that shift is what makes medicine feel meaningful again.

Connect further with Kaveh on LinkedIn and listen to House of Pod wherever you get podcasts.

To make sure you don’t miss an episode of How I Doctor, subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also read the full transcript of the episode below.

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Transcript

Kaveh Hoda:
I wonder sometimes if we are at our peak, because there are older doctors who are amazing at what they do, but I think there's also a fear that you've seen so much that you make decisions based on what you know and less based on evidence-based medicine. I think that's a risk I think that doctors run. And I do like to think that we're at our sweet spot right now.

Graham Walker:
Welcome to How I Doctor, where we're bringing joy back to medicine. Today, my guest is Dr. Kaveh Hoda, a practicing gastroenterologist and hepatologist at The Permanente Medical Group, where I also practice. Dr. Hoda is a fellow podcaster, running The House of Pod podcast for over a decade, I think, covering a mixture of healthcare, humor, and medical news, and I think was the first podcast I was ever on as a guest. I'm excited to talk to Kaveh today, because he is a mixture of thoughtful and funny, which I think is the best Dr. Pokemon subtype. He's a fantastic musician. And most importantly, when you Google him, one of the top links is the poop question GI doctors are tired of hearing. Welcome to the show, my friend, Dr. Kaveh Hoda.

KH:
Oh, thank you for having me.

The Mid-Career Moment: Doctors in the In-Between Generation

GW:
Kaveh, we've been meaning to speak for a while. Thank you for gracing us with your presence. We were talking and thought we could go in a billion directions, but I thought we'd actually cover being a mid-career physician. I think it's actually a very different challenge and it's probably the least discussed decade or segment of people's careers. And you and I, I think are both in that mid-zone. We're mid.

KH:
We're very mid. I'm very mid. No, you are absolutely right. It is a very interesting time. And you're exactly right. I think it's something that isn't discussed. And you either think of your career in terms of this is my career when I start, what I'm going through or when it ends. And this is that big chunk in between where a lot of people are and we're not discussing. We're in a weird sandwich generation, too. We were still using eponyms when we trained. There were still probably farm reps at the beginning of our training, so we were the in-between generation that saw that. I hate to get generational about it, but Gen X of medicine. So, it's a very interesting time to be practicing and to be a physician.

GW:
It's a good point. I know what a paper chart is or I was in that transition time. In med school for me, I started med school in 2003 to 2008, and so we were mostly on paper still. And when we would round, I would carry my paper in my white coat, but we also had some stuff in the computer on the EHR. I remember I have this idea in my head that somebody said once that the best doctors are eight to 10 years out of residency, because they have enough experience under their belt, that they've seen a lot of stuff. And so, they've got that experience, but they're not so far away from their medical training that they're very antiquated in their practice patterns or whatever. And I feel like this mid-career thing, I'm no longer in that eight to 10. Not like an old timer doc, but I don't feel like I'm that eight to 10 level either.

Are We at Our Peak as Physicians? Experience vs. Evidence

KH:
Yeah, I absolutely agree. But let me ask you, do you feel like you're at the height of your doctoral power at this point? Do you feel like this is the best you? I mean, because you watch chess players, for example. And chess players, you think on some degree as they get older they just get better, but that's actually not the case. There is a peak where you're at your ability to concentrate. You're an age where you've learned everything you need to know or as much as you're going to and you're at the peak of your concentration powers. And then there's sort of a decline after that. I wonder sometimes if we are at our peak. Because there are older doctors who are amazing at what they do, but I think there's also a fear that you've seen so much that you make decisions based on what you know and less based on evidence-based medicine. I think that's a risk I think that doctors run. And I do like to think that we're at our sweet spot right now, but I don't know. And I'm curious to know if you feel that way.

GW:
I don't want to be the doctor that people look at and think like, oh, what an antiquated way to do things, to approach a condition like a God. Is he still practicing the way he did in residency? If it's like residency was 30 years ago, the day before somebody retires, it's like, I don't think I want to. I hope that I've kept up and I've changed my practice some. I think that's the push and pull. We're in between the older docs and the new grads. And I even work with residents and medical students some as well. Do I listen to the way the residents are now managing things or do I use my own experience and say, no, I think I'm actually... the way I'm doing it is the "right" way to do things, because I've got experience under my belt that the residents don't have? What do you think feels the most different between now and 10 to 15 years ago?

The Decline of Medicine’s Mystique—and Why That’s Not All Bad

KH:
Technology goes forward and there's always that. There's always new technology and there is new things to learn. There's a lot more out there. Every year, there's more out there. You can see it. People have shown how the USMLE prep books increase in size every year. There's more to learn every year. I think in terms of culture, I like that we're less of a top-down patriarchal medical world now. I like that there is a more of a flat balance, and there's more 360 degree sort of approach to taking feedback and how there should be... We're getting closer to where we need to be in that regards. And the best way to avoid medical errors, and the best way to practice medicine is being approachable, and being able to get feedback from everyone involved in the healthcare system. And I think we're closer to that. Not there quite yet, but I think we're definitely better than where we were.
In terms of the downside, the allure, the mystique, the respect of medicine has dropped. There's no doubt about that. And that was happening even before COVID. And before we were held up briefly on a pedestal as heroes, to be taken down as villains of whatever is the latest contemporary conspiracy theory. That's probably the shift I saw, but we also did see that coming. My father was a doctor. We knew plenty, both of us, older doctors who would tell us stories about doctor lounges. Going to a restaurant and saying you were a doctor and being automatically ushered to a good seat, those days had already gone by the time we had been practicing. But that trend continued a little bit. And I mean it's a good and bad thing for that, too.
I mean doctors shouldn't consider themselves higher than everyone else. It makes us probably a little bit more likely to base our whole identity around medicine. And now people like us in our mid-careers, we're facing questions and we're probably going to talk about this, that older generations probably didn't, because we don't base our whole identity on medicine and being doctors.

GW:
I'm happy for the paternalism piece to go away. I wish it wasn't, like the trade wasn't for some villainization. I would've rather it been more just humanization. That it's like, okay, yeah, we're not perfect, but we're also not villains. Did you have any urges over your illustrious medical career to break up with medicine or stop practicing?

Is It Time to Rethink Your Relationship With Medicine?

KH:
No, I mean, not completely. I do enjoy what I do. I do think it's great. But now, we're in our mid-careers, we've gotten pretty good at what we do. The medicine is always changing, that's fun. And there's always new things to learn. And you do have to re-embrace every now and then the medicine itself and remember what you love about it, but you also get pretty good at it and you've done it for a while now, so you do want to explore different things. So, there has definitely been things I want to explore outside of medicine. And I think that's a big part of being a mid-career physician, is questioning that. I have never been fully tempted to leave medicine completely. I don't think I ever would, even if for example, the podcasts were to blow up and take me to that level where I could and it won't.
It won't for many reasons. But no worries, people. We're all good. That's not going to happen. But even if for some reason it did, I don't think I would take it, because I think what makes the podcasting interesting is that I'm actually practicing medicine. And once you step away from that too far, I think that my identity as a podcastor would change. So, I'm curious to hear your thoughts about this, because you've always been able to operate in multiple different worlds, business and medicine, entertainment. You've done a little bit of everything. I'm wondering about if you would do it, if you felt like you would ever get to a point where you would leave medicine completely.

GW:
There was a time I thought about it during COVID, where I was just very crispy. So, I've definitely considered it. But I think the point that you made is really good about the medicine piece of medicine, sometimes can get a little monotonous. I remember my program director in residency saying that... He's probably maybe five or 10 years more senior than I am now. And just he was bored by appendicitis. And he's like, "Yeah, I've seen a lot of those. It doesn't do much for me anymore." And I was just like, "No way. There's always going to be something." And I agree with you. I think the mid-career physician needs the opportunity to expand their life in some way. We dedicated so much of our twenties and thirties to this profession, and this career, and we gave up our youth, and our weekends and our holidays for other people, which is wonderful.
But I think this is the time that people want to try something else. And that might be professional development to expand their medical horizon. That might be just time with their family. They want to grow with their family. It might be a podcast, it might be a business, it might be a hobby, it might be travel, whatever it is. I think people now feel comfortable enough with the medicine that they're like, "What else is there in the world?" We're fully able to take the blinders off and be like, oh, wait, I'm allowed to do something else with my time?

How Midlife Crisis Looks Different for Modern Physicians

KH:

Absolutely. You're exactly right. I mean, we all at this point see that... we see the rest of our lives unfolding. And we recognize that there is a finite amount of time left for us. And everyone starts to wonder if they're doing exactly what they want and we all go through, for lack of a better word, some degree of midlife crisis. I think what's different now is since we no longer create our whole identity as physicians, that gives us other opportunities. And some people, like you said, may just decide to refocus into medicine, whether that's being part of the administration, whether that means learning new skills in medicine.

GW:
Getting a new board certification or something?

KH:
I don't know. I imagine in the past this happened, but because people had different outlook on things, that's why older doctors would then leave their wives of 30 years, 20 years, for a young student or nurse, or something like that. I feel like nowadays, people, instead of doing that sort of thing are like, "Okay, well, maybe I need a podcast." For me, it was that. It was develop a personality or have a podcast. And I was like, just going to go with the podcast. It's a lot easier.

GW:
We had Eric Bricker on the podcast and I still think about this. He talks about physicians being autodidacts, that we are really good about how to teach ourselves things, and learn things on our own independently. Just look at our twenties and thirties. We spent a lot of time absorbing information and consolidating in our brains. We probably still crave that to some degree as well.

KH:

Absolutely. I was actually watching The Pitt. And part of what actually made it kind of fun was going back. And every case they presented was almost like we were studying for an exam. You get these little vignettes.

GW:
Oh, it's an emergency medicine boards review course, essentially.

KH:
And it was fun, because I was like trying to guess what it is, what's the treatment, what's the next step in the workup? And someone who's not in medicine, who was a screenwriter asked us, "You guys aren't ER doctors. How do you know or think about these things? Why would you even know if it's not real?" And I said, "It's so drilled into us. We learned it. We studied so intensively that there are things that will not leave my brain." I cannot remember my mom's cell phone number, but I can tell you the first couple steps of the Krebs cycle. So, it's things that took up a lot of space in our brain. We really learned how to learn intensively at some cost. At some cost.

GW:
There's cost. You mentioned something about aging. When I was a younger physician, all my patients or almost all of them were older than me. And now that I'm 44, I'll be 45 in a couple months, I feel a little bit different about my patients that are now my age and I'm diagnosing them with really bad stuff. Do you similarly feel a little bit different about yourself and your relationship to your patients now?

The Physical Realities of Aging in Medicine

KH:

Oh, yeah. I know exactly where you're going with this.

GW:
Tell me.

KH:
This is an ongoing struggle. We're getting to that age where it would still be sad if we just died of a heart attack and it would still be shocking, but not too shocking. It wouldn't be so shocking that if something really bad happened to us that people would be like, "Well, we need to look into this. Is there some genetic abnormality? What's going on?" It would just be like, "Oh, man, that sucks. Next thing." We're at that point and that is hard. And I will tell your young doctor listeners, every single time you hear from a patient, "You look too young to be a doctor," suck the marrow out of those moments.

GW:
Record that, Get permission to record. Yeah, I know.

KH:
You never know when the last time you're going to hear that is. And there will be a last time you hear that.

GW:
I will now admit, now that I'm old enough to admit this, I have a pair of glasses that I do not need. They're like 0.25, but I used to wear them on shift. I think my hospital ID still has I'm wearing the glasses, because I really resented that thing people would say. "Oh, you're too young to be a doctor." And I totally agree with you. People haven't said that in years to me. In years.

KH:
People are like, you're the appropriate age. This is about right.

GW:
You're about what I expected from the top.

KH:
You're what I expected. This all scans.

GW:
Do you find yourself giving different advice to patients now that you're maybe the same age as them or you are in a body that is the same age as their body?

Authenticity at Work: Letting Go of the Doctor Persona
KH:

Yeah. I mean, I have a lot more empathy. That I think just happened with time anyways, but there is a lot less of just you got to lose weight. It's not about that. Because one, the number necessarily isn't the most important thing to me. It's whether or not they're eating the way I would like them to and whether they're exercising the way I want them to for their cardiac health and for their overall health. And I focus on that more, because I also know it's harder as you get older. I recently started exercising. For the second time in my life I got a gym membership. And I've been going to the gym every day, or five or six days a week, and I've been doing that for a month and a half. If I had done this in my twenties, I would be like Chris Hemsworth already. It would be absurd. And now, I'm just maintaining.

GW:
Hanging in there.

KH:
Hanging in there, hanging in there. So, I understand that a little bit better. And that is something I think we were all learning anyways in medicine, really not to focus on the number on the scale, but it gives me a realistic point to talk to people about. I don't expect anyone to ever fully adapt a plant-based diet if it's not something they're into, if it's not something they're ready for. But I do think it is reasonable to discuss with them introducing more plant-based foods into their diet. Does every meal have to have meat? Can you maybe instead of having three hamburgers a month that are poor quality fast food, maybe save it and get one good steak? Is that a possibility? So, I think I can come from a place that is actually a lot more reasonable. And in general, as I've gotten older, I code switch much less.
I speak to patients the same way I speak to you. And I speak to my friends the same way I'm speaking to you. I think a lot of unhappiness in medicine in general comes from people that don't know how to be themselves at work. And they put on this affectation. And they're putting on their doctor suit. And maybe that's good for some people, but for me, I like being able to speak normally. I feel like there's less tension in my brain, less cognitive dissonance if I speak to people the way I really want to talk to them.

GW:
I had a med school professor who told me, told all of us in the room like, "Hey, you guys are in med school. And the reason you're in med school is you probably have never had a real disease." And almost all of us were in our twenties and that probably was true. I don't know every one of my med school friends' past medical history. But the irony is that all of these people who are becoming physicians to some degree have been pretty healthy, that they didn't have some sort of disease making it way more challenging for them to excel in school or focus on school. And so, they actually have less experience with what it's like to have medical problems, to counsel the people who by definition have medical problems.
And so, in the same way, I have a way better understanding for counseling somebody about the challenges of weight loss or eating healthier, or addiction, or smoking, or whatever it is, or just like that stuff hurts in your forties. If a patient tells me, "Yeah, I've been trying to lose weight, but oh, it's so bad because my knees have been bothering me." It's way easier for me to understand what they're talking about, because I'm like, "I know. My knee's been bugging me for two weeks and I didn't even do anything."

KH:
The other thing I think about medicine and why this discussion about being a mid-career physician is important, is because you know how it is. You're talking about being a young doctor, you going to medical school. You're exactly right. We got there, because we were relatively privileged for one reason or another, health, wealth, all that stuff, family that were able to support us. And to get to where you got, you really had to just put your head down, focus, and run through brick wall after brick wall until you got to where you wanted to go. And if you had stopped at any point along that way and really said, "You know what? I need a moment of introspection here. Is this really what I want? Is this really what I want to do?" If you do that, it's like you lose momentum.
And then some people end up being doctors and then they're like, "Oh, man, I don't know if I really wanted to do this." I think we all know doctors who did that. Hopefully, most of them learned in the first couple of years and did something different. But we know that there are doctors out there who didn't and who are now stuck in it. I hope those doctors when they reach mid-career are able to question whether or not this is really what they want to do and feel the freedom to do it. That's one thing that comes with being a mid-career physician is you do have a little bit more confidence that you can make things work out. You know that what we have is a job that can help, that we can always be useful somewhere. But you also know that you have a job that is always going to be in demand. I don't see it being replaced by AI completely anytime soon.

GW:
I think there's more opportunities now than there ever were before for physicians who maybe aren't... it's just not a good fit. Maybe it was a good fit. Now it's not. There are way more opportunities and recognition of a physician's skill set being helpful in other areas that are non-medical or medical adjacent, too. How do you distinguish between just getting skeptical about the world or human nature, or the healthcare system, that interface between appropriate skepticism and cynicism?

From Skeptic to Cynic: Recognizing the Warning Signs

KH:

Doctors are skeptics by nature. It's part of a good medical training, is questioning what you're seeing, what you're doing, looking at a study and being able to see it. How to avoid being cynical is a challenge. For me, there is an importance of being skeptical and we should be skeptics. We absolutely should be skeptics. But when you become cynical, it's eating away at you more than anything else. And you do have to remind yourself that. It's small, it's a slow change that can happen over many years. And we've all seen people who've gone from being really enthusiastic, eager medical students to being cynical, burnt-out docs.
And I think we talk about mentors a lot and we talk about people that we learned a lot from. I also tried really hard to learn from the people I didn't like and learn what I didn't like about what they were doing. What was it about their teaching style? And when I saw that when I was in training, I recognized that cynicism. And it always was something I would register. I'd always clock it and be like, that's not where I want to be. James Baldwin said this and I'm paraphrasing, "In this world, there's never as much humanity as we would like, but there's enough." And I think that is something I cling to.

GW:
I like that. I recognized some cynicism myself again during COVID. ER doctor, probably no surprise there. But as I started to learn about it a bit, I associated that more with burnout. And that was actually a really helpful thing for me to realize, hey, I need to take a step back or reassess my priorities, or figuring out what I want to do with my time. I'll just say the three things that come with burnout, it's exhaustion, depersonalization, and a reduced sense of personal accomplishment. So, if you're listening and you're hearing any of those terms or one of the three, or two or three of the three, you probably are burnt out, would be my conclusion, my non-official diagnosis.
But the decreased sense of personal accomplishment is the feeling that, yeah, I'm a doctor, but literally nothing I do matters. Whatever's going to happen to the patient is going to happen to the patient. I have no power to impact them. And so, why even try? The exhaustion I think can manifest as mental exhaustion or physical exhaustion. And then the depersonalization is just an indifference toward work. Yeah, you're just kind of phoning it in or just clocking in. And so, I think that, when you were talking about cynicism, I remember feeling that kind of way and actually using it to help me recognize like, hey, I probably am burnt out. And it's common and normal, but I should take some active steps to see what I can change, too.

KH:
What I liked about the way you're putting it and the way you address it is that you're realistic about it. You're not being Pollyanna-esque, but you're also not being fatalistic about it. I mean, we can acknowledge two truths, that things are not perfect and that there's real problems, but that things can get better. And that we can work things out and we have the ability to do that.

GW:
When I was burnt out, I realized I was kind of doing... I don't know if I was doing too much. I'm always doing too much, but I was doing things that maybe I wasn't enjoying anymore. I used to write a monthly column in Emergency Medicine Journal. I mean, I did it for a decade and I used to really love it. And my last probably year or six months or so, I was just like, I actually don't enjoy this anymore. So, do you have any examples of things that you've let go of in your career or your personal life, and maybe what that opened up or how that helped you?

KH:
There was a time when I was doing a lot of teaching of medical students. And it was at a time where I was also pretty burnt out. It was around COVID time. It was a very busy time, very stressful time. And I think there was a point where I had to step away from it for a little bit, just because I wasn't giving it the attention. I wasn't putting into it what I needed to put into it. And it was making me feel kind of bad about it. I hate to say that, because I do think teaching is such an important part of what we do. And I don't plan on it being a forever thing. I'm at a point now where I have that emotional bandwidth to do it, but I did have to step away from it for a little bit.

GW:
Yeah, teaching is great. It definitely keeps you young, probably in the same way that your kids help keep you young. It reminds you of your younger self as well. What have you learned from maybe a med student or a resident, or a younger attending that surprised you or made you a better doctor?

Learning From the Next Generation of Physicians

KH:

Me doing this podcast has actually exposed me to younger generations of doctors. Something I really appreciate about them is they will speak truth to power. And that's a phrase I'm not even entirely sure I understand, but I think emotionally I understand it. There's a lot of things that we do in medicine where you just do it. You just do it and you don't question it, what was done before and you just do it. And there are a lot of people who are like, "No, we're not going to do that," and the younger generation. And I'm inspired by that. I think that's great. I think that's good for us to remember, too. We should question why are we doing this? Is this the right thing to do?

GW:
Sometimes I feel very different from, say, med students that are, gosh, 20 years younger than me. That's insane. But then sometimes I remind myself that they're actually very similar. Like, "Hey, we both decided to go to med school and both decided to do X, Y, Z." And that has helped me to consider their perspective a little bit longer and hold it a little bit longer. And see like, oh, maybe I am wrong. I think maybe that's the other thing that comes with age as well is a little bit more humility that, yeah, it's possible I'm wrong. Maybe I have been doing this the wrong way for 20 years, or thinking about the world in a wrong way. I mean, that's one of the best things about working with residents. It probably is what keeps a lot of academic physicians in academic jobs as well, is just the opportunity to learn from them, have your views challenge.
And also, it feels really amazing. When I pull from my brain some factoid that I didn't even know was there anymore, that somebody asked me, "Well, why is the PR interval look like that?" And it's robotic. Like, "Oh, it's because of the atria, blah, blah, blah. And let's draw out the His-Purkinje system." And I'm like, I don't use that in my clinical practice anymore, but clearly it's in there somewhere still. And I'm like, that is amazing that it's in there, too. My last question. I've had this idea recently that maybe an update or a refresh to the Hippocratic Oath might be interesting for modern, today's 2025 medicine. So, my question for you is, what might you add or change to make a Hippocratic Oath relevant or fair, or better today?

Rewriting the Hippocratic Oath for Modern Medicine

KH:

It would probably be something about listening, being active listeners, better listeners. I mean, something that I've learned as I've gotten older is to just stop, and listen, and to let people talk, patients or other people talk. And I think that is important. As doctors, we are very good at diagnosing things very quickly and we see patterns. We see pattern and we recognize them, both in medical and private lives. We see patterns and we know what's going to happen next. It's something you do very well is actively listen. Just not with the intent of having retort, not with the intent of anything other than just to listen and see where that goes. And I think that probably something we as doctors could benefit from.

GW:
Especially with AI coming to take over some of the listening. I'm thinking back to my esteemed medical school professors that said, "If you just listen, the patient will often tell you what's wrong." Well, Kaveh, thank you so much. It's been great to talk with you about a topic that I think is not talked about enough. Absolute pleasure. And I'd love to be on the podcast sometime soon. Thanks for joining me today. For interviews with physicians creating meaningful change, check out offcall.com/podcast. Make an account on Offcall to potentially share your details about your work. And sign up for our newsletter where you can hear more about the latest trends we're seeing in physician pay. You can find How I Doctor on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll have new episodes weekly. This has been and continues to be. Dr. Graham Walker. Stay well, stay inspired and practice with purpose.